Krugmandebate.com . It's a small minded human to believe war is an economic solution.

I wish Krugman would have pointed out that this military-keynsian system, which has been the basis of our economy since WWII is what is driving us bankrupt now as a nation: bankrupt socially, financially, educationally, industrially, technologically, etc.

It is wise and good for us all to realize and point out that our economy has been drive by the public sector since WWII, and it's useful to realize that it was WWII which provided the political will to institute Keynsian policies at the scale that was needed at the time. Unfortunately we can no longer afford both guns and butter, and we have not been able to affor this for a long time. Now with our economy collapsing, we need to decide which is more important: empire or democracy?

I hope we choose democracy and start diverting some of the >1 trillion USD we are currently spending each year on empire, and direct that spending on non-destructive projects instead. (For a detailed discussion of the real costs of American imperialism, I recommend Chalmers Johnsons "Dismantling the Empire".

There is no "god of economics". This is precisely what Marx called the "fetish of the commodity" -- the rather primitive notion the the capitalist mode of production is a law of physics that we can't do anything about and must accept whole.

"Nonetheless, we accept this system’s considerable inequalities because systems without any inequality don’t work"

We accept this system. wow. spoken like a true colonizer. This system was born of the accelerated greed of classical colonialism and it has been imposed on populations much the same way. There ain't no "consensus' here.

You know someone just lost the argument when their response is "well, life isn't fair..." - this man is blind to the experiences and knowledges of those on whom the global economic system has been thrust upon, starved, displaced and murdered for speaking out and fighting against.

I'm done caring what this imperial tool has to say.

Mr. Krugman's piece ended abruptly, making me think there should have been more.

Greed never sleeps, and ignorance never wakes up. It's still the same old divide and conquer. As long as everything is polarized (you're either for or against ---) we can't see that plutocracy is robbing us blind. Unite against the corporations.

"Has anyone noticed the economic collapse is not happening in the Middle East? This is because they kept to the biblical admonition against usury."

What are you talking about, the UAE states have been utterly reeling, the only ones not suffering are those who were already so dirt poor that biblical peoples would not notice the difference the 2000+ years have hence made.

If war were the answer we'd be rolling in wealth attributable to W's military adventurism. Actually we're broke because of his mental retardation, with which he listened to his conniving puppeteers and rah-rahed us into two unpaid-for wars for his self-glorification, just to one-up his Poppy. The initial climb out of the Big Depression was Roosevelt's program of recovery spending -- the New Deal. It was slow, and the war that overtook our history did require enormous spending, which actually improved the economy (except for rationing) because we expanded our industries and employment. But there are enough differences between then and now, including the absence of infrastructure rehab, so that we can't generalize. So far this time our Keynesian actions have checked the worst. A little more Keynes might go a longer way toward recovery. Maybe we ought to try the rehabilitation of roads, bridges, etc. -- they're crumbling, just like the economy. But of course the party that habitually drives us into recession or worse will "Just Say No."

1. Krugman didn't advise war as a solution. He just said that that is what happened instead of something good.
2. Krugman is explaining how things work within the system we have. He isn't saying it is a good system.
3. It isn't greed. None of this has to do with morals, seven deadly sins, or anything of that sort. It is primal fear. Our extreme inequality, now expressed as Wall Street versus Main Street, is simply the current version of one tribe defending what it has from another tribe that wants to have it, too. Those that come out on top do everything possible to stay there because the alternative is deprivation and death. Don't try to apply morals to evolution.

People keep hoping that good times will come back if only we do the right tinkering with financial, econ0mic, currency, tax and spending policies. But normal "business cycle" prosperity will not come back to a people who have used up their resources (oil, timber, water). We need to find our happiness in a less wasteful way of life rather than long for the gay nineties, roaring twenties and nifty fifties. Krugman's desire for a more humane (equalitarian) society is noble.

I think the western economic system destroys past systems to erase the collective memory of a community so the monied class can continue the Keynesian con

this happen internationally as well in as in heghborhoods

There could be laws and what was once in a flash, Labor unions that gave voice to people which had a leveling effect on the machinations and destructive side effects of unbridled capitalism

(on another economic point - all this international state bankrupts - IMO - is just a paper chase to transfer wealth and enslave the people of those nations. There is nothing legitimate about it. The debt was accrued by ill-gotten method)

Time to break down into tribes who have some ability to effect their environment. Outside we have soldiers taking loot for themselves and their leaders. "Democracy" can not happen in this environment. "Business" needs some stability.
I am not motivated by fear and greed as much as I am for the protection of my children.

Don't forget, for most of human history, and for much of humanity today, maybe even most of humanity today, the world was unequivocally divided into the wealthy and the peasants. The middle class with upward mobility is relatively recent and kind of a limited thing; we assume it's pretty much universal and the wave of the future, because we're born into it. That's a well known fallacy. So, the middle class and progressive capitalism had a good run, maybe it's going to tap out soon. After all, you've got to give the nod to tribalism and feudalism just on the basis of probability.

"Whenever I mention that World War II ended the Great Depression, I get a lot of mail accusing me of being a warmonger."
 
I would imagine that you also get a lot of mail telling you that YOU ARE WRONG. The average American's standard of living FELL continuously during the entire war, and didn't start trending upwards until after the war was over. Our involvement in the war (i.e., war spending) drained the economy, and only the destruction of much of Europe's industry, leaving us as the sole industrial giant, pulled us out.
 
This isn't rocket science. We built stuff and destroyed it. IOW, we spent money on lots of things that, in the end, had NO ECONOMIC VALUE. If you think that that boosts an economy, I invite you to spend your next paycheck on, for example, a couch, and, when you get it home, take it out in the back yard and burn it. See how much that boosts your economy, or the economy as a whole. If war boosted economies, the whole world would be at war continuously and we'd all be living like Bill Gates.
 
"And when we’re struggling with depression economics, in which it is difficult to create sufficient demand..."
 
Insufficient demand is the SYMPTOM, not the problem. If you don't understand that, you'll never reach a sustainable solution.
 
"In particular, public spending on the necessary scale never seems to get approved."
 
I agree with this. Government spending should be scaled down, and it never is. Well, it was at the start of the Depression of 1920, and it worked. The economy was back in the black by the end of 1921. But, then the FED started the inflationary boom that led to the crash of 1929.
 
"...trade was a minor factor in the American economy both before and immediately after the war, with imports and exports a much smaller share of gross domestic product than they are now."
 
Nice straw man. First of all, the way the government calculates GDP is bogus. Private product remaining gives a more accurate description of the health of an economy (spending $10,000,000 on a warship that is then sunk to the bottom of the ocean does not add $10,000,000 to the economy, yet is included in GDP). Second, the forced capital expansion during the war, which contributed to the lowering of the average standard of living, was then used to increase our standard of living after the war... the economy was just returning to the equilibrium it would have maintained had we not been involved in the war.
 
"There was an increase in trade for a few years in the late 1940s due to the effects of the Marshall Plan, which allowed ruined economies to buy more from the United States — in effect, a form of fiscal stimulus..."
 
Again, you show a complete lack of knowledge of economics (but, that is to be expected from someone who studied Keynesianism). The Marshall plan took money from the American taxpayer and sent it to Europe on the condition that (most of) it be spent on US-made goods. The "stimulus" was nothing more than mis-direction (look at all these exporting jobs, but don't look at the lowered domestic spending caused by the raising of the taxes to pay for it).
 
Be honest with us, Krugman. Admit that you're nothing more than a lackey for Goldman-Sachs and the MIC.

:::wow:::

The lack of common civility on this forum is stunning. I don't have any idea who Erich vonFreemason is (nor do I care) but his lack of respect for Dr. Krugman in the language he chooses to employ completely negates anything he might have to say. People who are right do not have to resort to name-calling; people who do so are not worth listening to.

Dr. Krugman's point - that ALL thinking should be on the table, not merely the current meme - is a valid one. We need to start with the nail, and follow it to its logical end.

The nail is poverty.

Before solutions can be properly discussed, it is necessary to understand the root of the problem. Not entirely clear if Mr Krugman or others actually do. The problem is that supposedly 'sovereign' governments allow privately-owned, commercial banks to be in charge of the money of a country. Commercial banks are in business not for the good of the country as a whole, but to maximise their profits. All else follows, although few seem to understand this. For some exploration of what this means in the Canadian context - What Happened? http://www.rudemacedon.ca/what-happened.html .
As a certain Mr Rothschild reportedly said - Give me control of a nation's money, and I care not who writers her laws.
Understand this, and we can talk intelligently about solutions.

WWII involved outfitting a huge standing army, which needed clothes, boots, weapons, transportation and supplies, all of which were manufactured in factories across the US.
 

Modern war planners aim to use as few actual soldiers as possible, and to spend as little as possible on the ones they do use. Today's GIs are poorly outfitted, redeployed again and again until they are used up, and not taken well cared for when they are hurt or broken. Today's war expenditures largely go to mega-corporations for mega-weapons. Far more money goes into the hands of CEOs and corporate shareholders than local to manufacturers. In fact, there is nothing to prevent parts for the drones and high tech weapons that US taxpayers' money buys from being manufactured offshore.

Yes WWII benefited the US economy and broke down the barriers against government spending. But my hunch that 21st century warfare will benefit not local economies but rather the plutocracy. Which has absolutely no loyalty to any state.

No matter what appears in an article, poster disingenuously calling himself Erich von Freemason always dives into the comments section to make the whole thing about himself. Pitiful. As his analogies are bad; his logic is faulty; his empathy quotient is near-zero, TruthOut, why do you coddle this loser?

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