The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage

by: Theodore B. Olson, Op-Ed

Why same-sex marriage is an American value.

Together with my good friend and occasional courtroom adversary David Boies, I am attempting to persuade a federal court to invalidate California's Proposition 8 -- the voter-approved measure that overturned California's constitutional right to marry a person of the same sex.

My involvement in this case has generated a certain degree of consternation among conservatives. How could a politically active, lifelong Republican, a veteran of the Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush administrations, challenge the "traditional" definition of marriage and press for an "activist" interpretation of the Constitution to create another "new" constitutional right?

My answer to this seeming conundrum rests on a lifetime of exposure to persons of different backgrounds, histories, viewpoints, and intrinsic characteristics, and on my rejection of what I see as superficially appealing but ultimately false perceptions about our Constitution and its protection of equality and fundamental rights.

Many of my fellow conservatives have an almost knee-jerk hostility toward gay marriage. This does not make sense, because same-sex unions promote the values conservatives prize. Marriage is one of the basic building blocks of our neighborhoods and our nation. At its best, it is a stable bond between two individuals who work to create a loving household and a social and economic partnership. We encourage couples to marry because the commitments they make to one another provide benefits not only to themselves but also to their families and communities. Marriage requires thinking beyond one's own needs. It transforms two individuals into a union based on shared aspirations, and in doing so establishes a formal investment in the well-being of society. The fact that individuals who happen to be gay want to share in this vital social institution is evidence that conservative ideals enjoy widespread acceptance. Conservatives should celebrate this, rather than lament it.

Legalizing same-sex marriage would also be a recognition of basic American principles, and would represent the culmination of our nation's commitment to equal rights. It is, some have said, the last major civil-rights milestone yet to be surpassed in our two-century struggle to attain the goals we set for this nation at its formation.

This bedrock American principle of equality is central to the political and legal convictions of Republicans, Democrats, liberals, and conservatives alike. The dream that became America began with the revolutionary concept expressed in the Declaration of Independence in words that are among the most noble and elegant ever written: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Sadly, our nation has taken a long time to live up to the promise of equality. In 1857, the Supreme Court held that an African-American could not be a citizen. During the ensuing Civil War, Abraham Lincoln eloquently reminded the nation of its founding principle: "our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."

At the end of the Civil War, to make the elusive promise of equality a reality, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution added the command that "no State shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person the equal protection of the laws."

Subsequent laws and court decisions have made clear that equality under the law extends to persons of all races, religions, and places of origin. What better way to make this national aspiration complete than to apply the same protection to men and women who differ from others only on the basis of their sexual orientation? I cannot think of a single reason -- and have not heard one since I undertook this venture -- for continued discrimination against decent, hardworking members of our society on that basis.

Various federal and state laws have accorded certain rights and privileges to gay and lesbian couples, but these protections vary dramatically at the state level, and nearly universally deny true equality to gays and lesbians who wish to marry. The very idea of marriage is basic to recognition as equals in our society; any status short of that is inferior, unjust, and unconstitutional.

The United States Supreme Court has repeatedly held that marriage is one of the most fundamental rights that we have as Americans under our Constitution. It is an expression of our desire to create a social partnership, to live and share life's joys and burdens with the person we love, and to form a lasting bond and a social identity. The Supreme Court has said that marriage is a part of the Constitution's protections of liberty, privacy, freedom of association, and spiritual identification. In short, the right to marry helps us to define ourselves and our place in a community. Without it, there can be no true equality under the law.

It is true that marriage in this nation traditionally has been regarded as a relationship exclusively between a man and a woman, and many of our nation's multiple religions define marriage in precisely those terms. But while the Supreme Court has always previously considered marriage in that context, the underlying rights and liberties that marriage embodies are not in any way confined to heterosexuals.

Marriage is a civil bond in this country as well as, in some (but hardly all) cases, a religious sacrament. It is a relationship recognized by governments as providing a privileged and respected status, entitled to the state's support and benefits. The California Supreme Court described marriage as a "union unreservedly approved and favored by the community." Where the state has accorded official sanction to a relationship and provided special benefits to those who enter into that relationship, our courts have insisted that withholding that status requires powerful justifications and may not be arbitrarily denied.

What, then, are the justifications for California's decision in Proposition 8 to withdraw access to the institution of marriage for some of its citizens on the basis of their sexual orientation? The reasons I have heard are not very persuasive.

The explanation mentioned most often is tradition. But simply because something has always been done a certain way does not mean that it must always remain that way. Otherwise we would still have segregated schools and debtors' prisons. Gays and lesbians have always been among us, forming a part of our society, and they have lived as couples in our neighborhoods and communities. For a long time, they have experienced discrimination and even persecution; but we, as a society, are starting to become more tolerant, accepting, and understanding. California and many other states have allowed gays and lesbians to form domestic partnerships (or civil unions) with most of the rights of married heterosexuals. Thus, gay and lesbian individuals are now permitted to live together in state-sanctioned relationships. It therefore seems anomalous to cite "tradition" as a justification for withholding the status of marriage and thus to continue to label those relationships as less worthy, less sanctioned, or less legitimate.

The second argument I often hear is that traditional marriage furthers the state's interest in procreation -- and that opening marriage to same-sex couples would dilute, diminish, and devalue this goal. But that is plainly not the case. Preventing lesbians and gays from marrying does not cause more heterosexuals to marry and conceive more children. Likewise, allowing gays and lesbians to marry someone of the same sex will not discourage heterosexuals from marrying a person of the opposite sex. How, then, would allowing same-sex marriages reduce the number of children that heterosexual couples conceive?

This procreation argument cannot be taken seriously. We do not inquire whether heterosexual couples intend to bear children, or have the capacity to have children, before we allow them to marry. We permit marriage by the elderly, by prison inmates, and by persons who have no intention of having children. What's more, it is pernicious to think marriage should be limited to heterosexuals because of the state's de-sire to promote procreation. We would surely not accept as constitutional a ban on marriage if a state were to decide, as China has done, to discourage procreation.

Another argument, vaguer and even less persuasive, is that gay marriage somehow does harm to heterosexual marriage. I have yet to meet anyone who can explain to me what this means. In what way would allowing same-sex partners to marry diminish the marriages of heterosexual couples? Tellingly, when the judge in our case asked our opponent to identify the ways in which same-sex marriage would harm heterosexual marriage, to his credit he answered honestly: he could not think of any.

The simple fact is that there is no good reason why we should deny marriage to same-sex partners. On the other hand, there are many reasons why we should formally recognize these relationships and embrace the rights of gays and lesbians to marry and become full and equal members of our society.

No matter what you think of homosexuality, it is a fact that gays and lesbians are members of our families, clubs, and workplaces. They are our doctors, our teachers, our soldiers (whether we admit it or not), and our friends. They yearn for acceptance, stable relationships, and success in their lives, just like the rest of us.

Conservatives and liberals alike need to come together on principles that surely unite us. Certainly, we can agree on the value of strong families, lasting domestic relationships, and communities populated by persons with recognized and sanctioned bonds to one another. Confining some of our neighbors and friends who share these same values to an outlaw or second-class status undermines their sense of belonging and weakens their ties with the rest of us and what should be our common aspirations. Even those whose religious convictions preclude endorsement of what they may perceive as an unacceptable "lifestyle" should recognize that disapproval should not warrant stigmatization and unequal treatment.

When we refuse to accord this status to gays and lesbians, we discourage them from forming the same relationships we encourage for others. And we are also telling them, those who love them, and society as a whole that their relationships are less worthy, less legitimate, less permanent, and less valued. We demean their relationships and we demean them as individuals. I cannot imagine how we benefit as a society by doing so.

I understand, but reject, certain religious teachings that denounce homosexuality as morally wrong, illegitimate, or unnatural; and I take strong exception to those who argue that same-sex relationships should be discouraged by society and law. Science has taught us, even if history has not, that gays and lesbians do not choose to be homosexual any more than the rest of us choose to be heterosexual. To a very large extent, these characteristics are immutable, like being left-handed. And, while our Constitution guarantees the freedom to exercise our individual religious convictions, it equally prohibits us from forcing our beliefs on others. I do not believe that our society can ever live up to the promise of equality, and the fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, until we stop invidious discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

If we are born heterosexual, it is not unusual for us to perceive those who are born homosexual as aberrational and threatening. Many religions and much of our social culture have reinforced those impulses. Too often, that has led to prejudice, hostility, and discrimination. The antidote is understanding, and reason. We once tolerated laws throughout this nation that prohibited marriage between persons of different races. California's Supreme Court was the first to find that discrimination unconstitutional. The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously agreed 20 years later, in 1967, in a case called Loving v. Virginia. It seems inconceivable today that only 40 years ago there were places in this country where a black woman could not legally marry a white man. And it was only 50 years ago that 17 states mandated segregated public education -- until the Supreme Court unanimously struck down that practice in Brown v. Board of Education. Most Americans are proud of these decisions and the fact that the discriminatory state laws that spawned them have been discredited. I am convinced that Americans will be equally proud when we no longer discriminate against gays and lesbians and welcome them into our society.

Reactions to our lawsuit have reinforced for me these essential truths. I have certainly heard anger, resentment, and hostility, and words like "betrayal" and other pointedly graphic criticism. But mostly I have been overwhelmed by expressions of gratitude and good will from persons in all walks of life, including, I might add, from many conservatives and libertarians whose names might surprise. I have been particularly moved by many personal renditions of how lonely and personally destructive it is to be treated as an outcast and how meaningful it will be to be respected by our laws and civil institutions as an American, entitled to equality and dignity. I have no doubt that we are on the right side of this battle, the right side of the law, and the right side of history.

Some have suggested that we have brought this case too soon, and that neither the country nor the courts are "ready" to tackle this issue and remove this stigma. We disagree. We represent real clients -- two wonderful couples in California who have longtime relationships. Our lesbian clients are raising four fine children who could not ask for better parents. Our clients wish to be married. They believe that they have that constitutional right. They wish to be represented in court to seek vindication of that right by mounting a challenge under the United States Constitution to the validity of Proposition 8 under the equal-protection and due-process clauses of the 14th Amendment. In fact, the California attorney general has conceded the unconstitutionality of Proposition 8, and the city of San Francisco has joined our case to defend the rights of gays and lesbians to be married. We do not tell persons who have a legitimate claim to wait until the time is "right" and the populace is "ready" to recognize their equality and equal dignity under the law.

Citizens who have been denied equality are invariably told to "wait their turn" and to "be patient." Yet veterans of past civil-rights battles found that it was the act of insisting on equal rights that ultimately sped acceptance of those rights. As to whether the courts are "ready" for this case, just a few years ago, in Romer v. Evans, the United States Supreme Court struck down a popularly adopted Colorado constitutional amendment that withdrew the rights of gays and lesbians in that state to the protection of anti-discrimination laws. And seven years ago, in Lawrence v. Texas, the Supreme Court struck down, as lacking any rational basis, Texas laws prohibiting private, intimate sexual practices between persons of the same sex, overruling a contrary decision just 20 years earlier.

These decisions have generated controversy, of course, but they are decisions of the nation's highest court on which our clients are entitled to rely. If all citizens have a constitutional right to marry, if state laws that withdraw legal protections of gays and lesbians as a class are unconstitutional, and if private, intimate sexual conduct between persons of the same sex is protected by the Constitution, there is very little left on which opponents of same-sex marriage can rely. As Justice Antonin Scalia, who dissented in the Lawrence case, pointed out, "(W)hat (remaining) justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples exercising '(t)he liberty protected by the Constitution'?" He is right, of course. One might agree or not with these decisions, but even Justice Scalia has acknowledged that they lead in only one direction.

California's Proposition 8 is particularly vulnerable to constitutional challenge, because that state has now enacted a crazy-quilt of marriage regulation that makes no sense to anyone. California recognizes marriage between men and women, including persons on death row, child abusers, and wife beaters. At the same time, California prohibits marriage by loving, caring, stable partners of the same sex, but tries to make up for it by giving them the alternative of "domestic partnerships" with virtually all of the rights of married persons except the official, state-approved status of marriage. Finally, California recognizes 18,000 same-sex marriages that took place in the months between the state Supreme Court's ruling that upheld gay-marriage rights and the decision of California's citizens to withdraw those rights by enacting Proposition 8.

So there are now three classes of Californians: heterosexual couples who can get married, divorced, and remarried, if they wish; same-sex couples who cannot get married but can live together in domestic partnerships; and same-sex couples who are now married but who, if they divorce, cannot remarry. This is an irrational system, it is discriminatory, and it cannot stand.

Americans who believe in the words of the Declaration of Independence, in Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, in the 14th Amendment, and in the Constitution's guarantees of equal protection and equal dignity before the law cannot sit by while this wrong continues. This is not a conservative or liberal issue; it is an American one, and it is time that we, as Americans, embraced it.

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"no State shall deprive any

"no State shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law"

As far as I'm concerned the due process was when the law was put on the ballot and the people voted to enact the law.

Sexual orientation is not the equivalent of gender or race. So far science has shown that no one is born 100% gay. They may be born with certain genes that increase the chance, but it is not set in stone at birth. It is also alarming the number of women that claim to be bisexual or are curious. All this is is just a perverse self desire of physical pleasure. If homosexuality was not pushed in our faces by the media and liberals we would have far fewer women "experimenting". If they are just curious and experimenting then they are not gay. I wasn't "curious", and I didn't need to "experiment" to see if I had the correct sexual orientation as nature intended. I've liked the opposite sex since as far back as I can remember. Inny + Outy = Correct & Complete. So, then what caused this curiosity? In many cases the coercion by a homosexual to come join the team. Homosexuality increases the moral decay of society. It does not improve it. Have you ever stopped to think that true homosexuality is actually rooted in a genetic defect that gets triggered through experiences sometime between the time in the womb until puberty? What benefit does homosexuality serve to perpetuate the human race? You always hear the argument, "why would anyone choose to be gay". Some may, and some may not. However, if we discover a way to correct this defect then why wouldn't anyone who is gay choose to correct it? Unless, of course, they are choosing to be that way.



You know, there is an ironic

You know, there is an ironic note in all of this. More, and more, anti-gay marriage conservatives have been arguing that gay couples "don't need marriage" because after all, there have been ways devised for them to do everything married couples get to do---file joint tax returns; deed property; buy a home together---even adopt and raise children. I guess it has never occurred to them that by forcing so many people who genuinely want to marry, to perform an end run around the institution simply to live their lives, and perform an array of social and economic functions WITHOUT the benefit of this special legal union---that they themselves are inadvertently setting the wheels in motion for the eventual obsolescizing of marriage altogether. After all, if Bruce and Wayne, the friendly neighborhood gay couple, are forced to realize their lifelong commitment to each other without getting married, and manage to do everything that married couples can do, how long will it be before John and Cindy next door figure out that hell, THEY don't really need to get married, either?

So amusingly enough, it will be the very people who loudly proclaim to be "protecting" the sanctity of marriage who will end up being the ones that play taps for it. More and more couples will find out that marriage isn't really all that necessary and, voila! The beginning of the end of an age-old institution.

Ironic, no?



"Straight pride" wouldn't

"Straight pride" wouldn't know a sexual pleasure if it sat on her face. I am straight myself and people like you make me sick.
Ever think that maybe LESS BREEDING might be a good thing? Humanity is quickly exceeding the amount of individuals the planet can sustain and feed.
I would rather see a huge surge in same sex relationships dipping the population growth then say, a plague.



Someday in the future kids

Someday in the future kids will learn about this struggle and will not understand why one group of people condemned another group of people for being in love.



The only thing straight

The only thing straight pride proves, is that the right wing gene pool needs to be chlorinated.



"Subsequent laws and court

"Subsequent laws and court decisions have made clear that equality under the law extends to persons of all races, religions, and places of origin."

Get Real! We ALL know what the constitution laws say but justice is not always carried out. Slavery-Emancipation Proclamation-Segregation. What is the prison population for minorities compared to those of the rich who have committed the same crimes? Freedom of religion, yet, synagogues, mosques, and churches are being blown up and set afire. The list is long...



Aside from the utterly

Aside from the utterly obnoxious and factually incorrect statements first commenter "Straight pride" has made, this person has selectively quoted from the Fourteenth Amendment and left out the relevant clause, ". . . nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." One can't then pass a law negating those rights implied within the clause at the state level. One would have to amend the U.S. Constitution itself.



I've got it. Since prop 8

I've got it. Since prop 8 has tried to claim the label "marriage" but allow separate-but-equal rights to the glbt community, let's all find a new label (gayrriage?) that we like, and the straight community can follow our glbt friends over there. We all nullify our marriages, get gayrried, maybe the parents will even spring for another party. Soon the only married folks will be the hatred driven wackos of the right, and the label will finally be safe.



Thank you Mr. Olson for a

Thank you Mr. Olson for a well-thought-out, clearly written explanation. May your reasoning be adopted by the courts, all the way up to and including the Supreme Court.



The Bill of Rights was

The Bill of Rights was attached to the Constitution as a means of protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority. The majority doesn't need protection from the minority, they are, after all, the majority, and can vote unconstitutional legislation into being! The courts are the last resort of the minority, as in Brown vs. Board of Education, and though the legitimacy of the courts has been undermined by conservative activism and its deplorable nominees (as in Clarence Thomas and Bush vs. the State of Florida) it can't completely ignore the Bill of Rights, despite all the whining from conservative doom-sayers.



Mr. Olson, thank you for you

Mr. Olson, thank you for you brilliantly done piece of reasoned citizenship and for all the work you are doing.
Straight Pride, what a deluded, prejudicial, misinformed, and downright ugly set of non sequiturs! You didn't understand a thing Mr. Olson wrote. "Homosexuality increases the moral decay of society." *You* increase the moral decay of society with each attack on our Constitutional rights. Did *you* ever try thinking past your prejudice and indoctrination. Obviously not. But this Country is dedicated to equality for all. Love it or leave it.
"What benefit does homosexuality serve to perpetuate the human race? Apparently you'll never understand. You and your, "brethren" have perpetuated the human race to near extinction, totally mindlessly. So how exactly does your brain "deadedness" serve to perpetuate the freedoms guarranteed by our Constitution or the human race in general? That is the real question we should all be asking *you*. So as not to confuse the issue, I am straight too. But I'm not ridiculous.
You have the right, under our Constitution, to do what you wish in private as long as you don't hurt anyone else. But in your post above, you blasted out with uninformed and unaware prejudice, hurtful homophobia, lots of unfounded fear, and a load of misinformation. How can *that *not* hurt our society?
You know, or maybe not, that your intransigence (look that up) speaks volumes. And we have listened to you and your fellows, to our detriment, for over 2,000 years, in which time we have heard everything you have to say. It is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have absolutely no way to understand what informed people know and understand, and you have no imagination with which to begin to figure out that most of us have passed you by long ago. People around the globe laugh at America for putting up with you and your fellows. But you are quarranteed equality as long as you don't harm others. ...AS LONG AS YOU DON'T HARM OTHERS.... So crawl back under your rock of ages and keep your private machinations private and get out of our faces. I, for one, am embarrassed for you.



I am thankful that my father

I am thankful that my father and sister aren't the only straight Republicans who think like Mr. Olson. The party needs more of you!



Mr. Olson: I salute you

Mr. Olson:

I salute you sir! Unlike our president who fails to speak out against these invidious Gay Jim Crow laws you, sir, make me proud of my legal education and my profession.

"The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections." Justice Robert H. Jackson (1892-1954), dissenting U. S. Supreme Court Justice Source: West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943),

"We must be ever on our guard lest we erect our prejudices into legal principals. If we would guide by the light of reason, we must let our minds be bold. " Justice Brandeis



"We must be ever on our

"We must be ever on our guard lest we erect our prejudices into legal principals. If we would guide by the light of reason, we must let our minds be bold. " Justice Brandeis

Sir! Thank you both! I salute you. This is EXACTLY where this case belongs - in the Federal Court! Thank heaven somebody had the guts to do the only thing that can make a real difference!

Unlike our so-called ‘civil rights’ lawyer president who has utterly lacked the courage to speak out against these invidious gay Jim Crow laws you both make me proud of my education and my profession.

Please see “Prop 8: Mobocracy Goes on Trial in San Francisco” at Salon.com and related matters.

"The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections." Justice Robert H. Jackson (1892-1954), dissenting West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943).



Why does Truthout persist in

Why does Truthout persist in placing gay stories toward the bottom of the page? Here we have one of the major, perhaps the major civil rights issue, of the day, with a landmark trial going on. Truthout keeps banging repetitive issues that it's covered extensively before -- important, to be sure, but repetitive. I fear Truthout's coverage replicates my experience with many straight activist groups -0h, yes, we're all for gay rights, but don't distract us from our issues.



"no State shall deprive any

"no State shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law"

As far as I'm concerned the due process was when the law was put on the ballot and the people voted to enact the law.

Sexual orientation is not the equivalent of gender or race. So far science has shown that no one is born 100% gay. They may be born with certain genes that increase the chance, but it is not set in stone at birth. It is also alarming the number of women that claim to be bisexual or are curious. All this is is just a perverse self desire of physical pleasure. If homosexuality was not pushed in our faces by the media and liberals we would have far fewer women "experimenting". If they are just curious and experimenting then they are not gay. I wasn't "curious", and I didn't need to "experiment" to see if I had the correct sexual orientation as nature intended. I've liked the opposite sex since as far back as I can remember. Inny + Outy = Correct & Complete. So, then what caused this curiosity? In many cases the coercion by a homosexual to come join the team. Homosexuality increases the moral decay of society. It does not improve it. Have you ever stopped to think that true homosexuality is actually rooted in a genetic defect that gets triggered through experiences sometime between the time in the womb until puberty? What benefit does homosexuality serve to perpetuate the human race? You always hear the argument, "why would anyone choose to be gay". Some may, and some may not. However, if we discover a way to correct this defect then why wouldn't anyone who is gay choose to correct it? Unless, of course, they are choosing to be that way.



Mr. Olson, if you had not

Mr. Olson, if you had not put Bush in office with an illegal appointment thanks to a Supreme Court ruling attained by you, perhaps you would not have to be in CA today "defending gay rights". Personally, I think you are on this case for damage control for your obscenely guilty "conscience" and eternally sordid self image. I'd rather have a progressive attorney on this case. Go back to conservative-ville and tend to your own flock. You have no right to defend a gay community that was set back a generation in its fight for equal rights. It was you who set them back.



Oh, wow. Straight Pride, who

Oh, wow. Straight Pride, who is getting too much attention, attributes same-sex orientation as a genetic defect that may perhaps be corrected eventually. I guess it's like that Hansen's Disease gene: If you don't have it, and about 96 percent of the world's population does not, then you don't get leprosy. Let's fix THAT problem while we're looking at that gender-attraction thing.
One of the arguments that seems to be overlooked is the one raised by church groups who fear they will be forced to accept same-sex couples. Yet some churches do not recognize marriages made outside the faith and others do not accept remarriages by persons who are divorced. There is ample room for each religious group to decide whether to accept a same-sex marriage.



I find it funny the amount

I find it funny the amount of ad hominem you people spew. Some of you tell me I am making factually mistaken statements. What is your proof of this? Science has not shown any conclusive evidence. Only pieces to the puzzle. I am stating what evidence there is combined with my own hypothesis. Maybe all of you should do some research before letting your thoughts out. Sexual orientation is not protected under the constitution. If it was then beastiality, and pedophiles would be protected too. Has anyone studied if they have a genetic defect that causes them to act perversely too?

@Schmocker: You are quite arrogant. Are you proud of yourself that you used your word of the day? I find it funny how people who call others closed minded, stubborn, and uncompromising are themselves exactly that. What is it you are willing to compromise? What is it that homosexuals are willing to compromise? What is it liberals are willing to compromise? Do you understand what the word compromise means? Civil Unions are a compromise! It is not "marriage", but it still gives many of the same benefits.

In society today the usage of the word love is based on an emotion. However, true love is an action. It is not based on how you feel, but what you do in spite of your feelings!

Many of you act purely based on your emotions. Emotions cloud logic. It is natural to be defensive when facts disagree with your opinion. You lash out in anger because your emotions control you instead of you controlling your emotions.



@AlVeerhoff : Are you

@AlVeerhoff :

Are you actually insinuating that the gene that makes you susceptible to leprosy is normal and that we should "correct" the absence of it? That is absurd!!! The fact that such a small percentage carries this gene implies that it is an abnormality. A defect if you will. Just like the genes that play a role in homosexuality.

Now, if you actually meant that we should remove the gene from the small percentage of people that have it, and therefore cure leprosy once and for all then I am all for that.



On Wednesday March 1, 2006.

On Wednesday March 1, 2006. There was an article in
the Daily News about a same sex marriage
ban, where the article stated:

Wisconsin voters will decide in November whether to
ban gay marriage and civil unions. The amendment would
defend marriage from legal challenges by liberal
judges seeking to grant same sex couples the right to
marry, such as the one that was successful in
Massachusetts. Critics said the amendment is not
needed because state law already defines marriage as
between a husband and a wife.

The background of the U.S. constitution is based on
English common law, which was derived mainly from
scripture and the efforts of many bible believing
founding fathers.

How should we stand with our governments laws
involving church and state? It has to be one way or
the other, either our government follows the Bible and
the word of God or it does not. In this case, the
church would not marry anyone other than one man and
one woman.

If same sex couples were the thing to do, there
wouldn't be reproduction, and we wouldn't exist. Which
does not make sense. We were made so as a man is to be
with a woman, as defined in the Bible; marriage is a
union of one man and one woman.

Lets ask ourselves a few questions. How many gay and
or non-believers want to be married? Why would you
want to be married if you don't believe in what is
written in the Bible?

How many non-believers celebrate Christmas? Why? For
those who do believe in the Lord our God, why do you
teach your children about Santa Claus? It says in the
Bible to keep yourselves from false idols. This is
more true today than ever before, and it is absolutely
vital that true Christians refrain from all forms of
idols. Christmas is a time when we "all" should be
celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

Among many other things. What I'm trying to point
out is, societies beliefs can be confusing. Open your
eyes and see (that your faith should not stand in the
wisdom of men, but in the power of God. ~Corinthians
2:5)

Try to understand why this is important, first read
the Bible before you discard the reasons for this
amendment. If we followed the word of God, I feel we
wouldn't have such issues and a lot of things would be
better. Maybe this is a good place to start! So, how
should we stand with our governments laws involving
church and state?



I am a little unsure of how

I am a little unsure of how to approach your argument because I think you might be confused about a couple of things. First, I do not see what about homosexuality that makes it defective other than what has been perpetuated in society. The only things that serve to show how it is defective are the violations of rights to those who suffer( I am joking with this word, if you don't get it.) from homosexuality. In a nutshell, people who encroach on the rights of homosexuals are what make it a defect. You ask what benefit does homosexuality offer the human race? I will suggest you think about what benefit it serves not to alienate people and make everyone feel that they are part of a legitimate social contract. I turn the question to you now and ask what harm can homosexuality bring to the human race? You didn't really offer much there and it seems that you are basing your argument entirely on the inconclusiveness of genetic findings. There also isn't really a premise to your argument. You just say that we don't know for sure how people are gay and that we should therefore not give them the same opportunities as straight couples to get married. Why would it matter how or why they are gay? Why would you care? why would you be such a d*ck?I am not sure if your argument is that being gay is a result of a genetic "defect," as you call it, or if it is something that is chosen and learned in life. In either case you are wrong for basing your argument, if you have one, on such premises. Let us approach the "arguments" by supposing that either premise is correct and then looking for the logic that follows each one respectively. We have not established any other defect other than that which I mentioned, so I will use genetic aberration in its place. I do not wish to suggest that is not normal to have gay members of society but to prove my point using your logic. I think what you are saying is if someone is born with a genetic aberration they need it fixed. Not all genetic aberrations are bad. Some have been the cause of evolution and the result of human survival. According to you, they would want to get it fixed unless they really wanted to be gay. What a stupid and insidious way to try and force people to be straight! You might as well say either become straight or deal with the consequences of not being straight. Are you trying to force terms on people? why? What worries you? Maybe some people don't want to change and should not be required to. It is part of that whole pursuit of happiness thing written in the Declaration of Independence by OUR forefathers. What if they acquired gayness in their life? Maybe you are saying if someone's homosexuality is acquired during life then they must be in control and should not choose homosexuality. On what grounds should they choose not to be gay. Should you choose not to love what you love because people don't want you to? Your decision would be based on more than that? would it not? You know what? It does not matter why people are the way they are. So f*ck trying to figure it out. Live and let live. And stop being a cock!



@straightpride I am a little

@straightpride

I am a little unsure of how to approach your argument because I think you might be confused about a couple of things. First, I do not see what about homosexuality that makes it defective other than what has been perpetuated in society. The only things that serve to show how it is defective are the violations of rights to those who suffer( I am joking with this word, if you don't get it.) from homosexuality. In a nutshell, people who encroach on the rights of homosexuals are what make it a defect. You ask what benefit does homosexuality offer the human race? I will suggest you think about what benefit it serves not to alienate people and make everyone feel that they are part of a legitimate social contract. I turn the question to you now and ask what harm can homosexuality bring to the human race? You didn't really offer much there and it seems that you are basing your argument entirely on the inconclusiveness of genetic findings. There also isn't really a premise to your argument. You just say that we don't know for sure how people are gay and that we should therefore not give them the same opportunities as straight couples to get married. Why would it matter how or why they are gay? Why would you care? why would you be such a d*ck?I am not sure if your argument is that being gay is a result of a genetic "defect," as you call it, or if it is something that is chosen and learned in life. In either case you are wrong for basing your argument, if you have one, on such premises. Let us approach the "arguments" by supposing that either premise is correct and then looking for the logic that follows each one respectively. We have not established any other defect other than that which I mentioned, so I will use genetic aberration in its place. I do not wish to suggest that is not normal to have gay members of society but to prove my point using your logic. I think what you are saying is if someone is born with a genetic aberration they need it fixed. Not all genetic aberrations are bad. Some have been the cause of evolution and the result of human survival. According to you, they would want to get it fixed unless they really wanted to be gay. What a stupid and insidious way to try and force people to be straight! You might as well say either become straight or deal with the consequences of not being straight. Are you trying to force terms on people? why? What worries you? Maybe some people don't want to change and should not be required to. It is part of that whole pursuit of happiness thing written in the Declaration of Independence by OUR forefathers. What if they acquired gayness in their life? Maybe you are saying if someone's homosexuality is acquired during life then they must be in control and should not choose homosexuality. On what grounds should they choose not to be gay. Should you choose not to love what you love because people don't want you to? Your decision would be based on more than that? would it not? You know what? It does not matter why people are the way they are. So f*ck trying to figure it out. Live and let live. And stop being a cock!



that previous post was in

that previous post was in response to straight prides comments