What Torture Is and Why It's Illegal and Not "Poor Judgment"
Saturday 13 March 2010
by: Andy Worthington, t r u t h o u t | News Analysis

(Image: Lance Page / t r u t h o u t; Adapted: alumbis, *terry)
It's now over three weeks since veteran Justice Department (DOJ) lawyer David Margolis dashed the hopes of those seeking accountability for the Bush administration's torturers, but this is a story of such profound importance that it must not be allowed to slip away.
Margolis decided that an internal report into the conduct of John Yoo and Jay S. Bybee, who wrote the notorious memos in August 2002, which attempted to redefine torture so that it could be used by the CIA, was mistaken in concluding that both men were guilty of "professional misconduct," and should be referred to their bar associations for disciplinary action.
Instead, Margolis concluded, in a memo that shredded four years of investigative work by the Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR), the DOJ's ethics watchdog, that Yoo and Bybee had merely exercised "poor judgment." As lawyers in the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), which is charged with providing objective legal advice to the executive branch on all constitutional questions, Yoo and Bybee attempted to redefine torture as the infliction of physical pain "equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death," or the infliction of mental pain which "result[s] in significant psychological harm of significant duration e.g. lasting for months or even years."
Yoo, notoriously, had lifted his description of the physical effects of torture from a Medicare benefits statute and other health care provisions in a deliberate attempt to circumvent the UN Convention Against Torture, signed by President Reagan in 1988 and incorporated into US federal law, in which torture is defined as:
any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person ...
Obsessed with finding ways in which "severe pain" could be defined so that the CIA could torture detainees and get away with it, Yoo drew on some truly revolting examples of physical torture, citing a particularly brutal case, Mehinovic v. Vuckovic, in which, during the Bosnian war, a Serb soldier named Nikola Vuckovic had tortured his Bosnian neighbor, Kemal Mehinovic, with savage and sadistic brutality. Yoo dismissed the possibility that other torture techniques - waterboarding, for example, which is a form of controlled drowning, and prolonged sleep deprivation - might cause "significant psychological harm of significant duration," or physical pain rising to a level that a judge might regard as torture.
In both of his definitions, however, Yoo was clearly mistaken. No detailed studies have yet emerged regarding the prolonged psychological effects of the torture program approved by Yoo and Bybee, largely because lawyers for the "high-value detainees" in Guantánamo have been prevented - first under Bush, and now under Obama - from revealing anything publicly about their clients.
However, lawyers for Ramzi bin al-Shibh, who was charged in the Bush administration's military commissions, made a good show of demonstrating that bin al-Shibh is schizophrenic and on serious medication, when they argued throughout 2008 that he was not fit to stand trial, and I have seen no evidence to suggest that bin al-Shibh was in a similar state before his four years in secret CIA prisons.
An even more pertinent example is Abu Zubaydah, a supposed high-value detainee, held in secret CIA prisons for four and a half years, for whom the torture program was originally developed. Zubaydah's case may well be the most shocking in Guantánamo, because, although he was subjected to physical violence and prolonged sleep deprivation, was confined in a small box and was waterboarded 83 times, the CIA eventually concluded that he was not, as George W. Bush claimed after his capture, "al-Qaeda's chief of operations," but was, instead, a "kind of travel agent" for recruits traveling to Afghanistan for military training, who was not a member of al-Qaeda at all.
Zubaydah was clearly mentally unstable before his capture and torture, as the result of a head wound sustained in Afghanistan in 1992, but as one of his lawyers, Joe Margulies, explained in an article in the Los Angeles Times last April, his subsequent treatment in US custody has caused a profound deterioration in his mental health that would certainly constitute "significant psychological harm of significant duration." Margolis wrote:
No one can pass unscathed through an ordeal like this. Abu Zubaydah paid with his mind. Partly as a result of injuries he suffered while he was fighting the communists in Afghanistan, partly as a result of how those injuries were exacerbated by the CIA and partly as a result of his extended isolation, Abu Zubaydah's mental grasp is slipping away. Today, he suffers blinding headaches and has permanent brain damage. He has an excruciating sensitivity to sounds, hearing what others do not. The slightest noise drives him nearly insane. In the last two years alone, he has experienced about 200 seizures.
Moreover, when it came to defining physical torture, the OPR report's authors noted that, as so often in the memos, Yoo had ignored relevant case history. The key passage in the report deals with the US courts' decisions regarding the Torture Victim Protection Act (TVPA). Yoo had drawn on Mehinovic for his description of physical torture "of an especially cruel and even sadistic nature," and, as the authors noted, he also argued that only 'acts of an extreme nature' that were 'well over the line of what constitutes torture' have been alleged in TVPA cases."
The authors continued:
Thus, the memorandum asserted, "there are no cases that analyze what the lowest boundary of what constitutes torture."[sic]
That assertion was misleading. In fact, conduct far less extreme than that described in Mehinovic v. Vuckovic was held to constitute torture in one of the TVPA cases cited in the appendix to the Bybee memo. That case, Daliberti v. Republic of Iraq, 146 F. Supp. 2d 146 (D.D.C. 2001), held that imprisonment for five days under extremely bad conditions, while being threatened with bodily harm, interrogated and held at gunpoint, constituted torture with respect to one claimant.
A close inspection of Daliberti (which dealt with US personnel seized by Iraqi forces between 1992 and 1995) is revealing, as the DC District Court held, "Such direct attacks on a person and the described deprivation of basic human necessities are more than enough to meet the definition of 'torture' in the Torture Victim Protection Act." The judges based their ruling on the following:
David Daliberti and William Barloon allege that they were "blindfolded, interrogated and subjected to physical, mental and verbal abuse" while in captivity. They allege that during their arrests one of the agents of the defendant threatened them with a gun, allegedly causing David Daliberti "serious mental anguish, pain and suffering." During their imprisonment in Abu Ghraib prison, Daliberti and Barloon were "not provided adequate or proper medical treatment for serious medical conditions which became life threatening." The alleged torture of Kenneth Beaty involved holding him in confinement for eleven days "with no water, no toilet and no bed." Similarly, Chad Hall allegedly was held for a period of at least four days "with no lights, no window, no water, no toilet and no proper bed." Plaintiffs further proffer that Hall was "stripped naked, blindfolded and threatened with electrocution by placing wires on his testicles ... in an effort to coerce a confession from him."
Yoo and his apologists will undoubtedly quibble yet again. There is the threat of electrocution, a threat made with a gun and deprivation of water, in one case for 11 days, none of which feature in the OLC's memos. However, outside of the specific torture program approved by the OLC, numerous prisoners who were held at Bagram before being transported to Guantánamo have stated that they were actually subjected to electric shocks while hooded (rather than being threatened with electrocution), and that being threatened at gunpoint was a regular occurrence.
Moreover, it has also been stated that the withholding of medication was used with Abu Zubaydah after his capture, when he was severely wounded, and it should also be noted that numerous ex-prisoners have stated that, in Guantánamo, it was routine for medical treatment to be withheld unless prisoners cooperated with their interrogators.
Most of all, however, a comparison between Daliberti and the OLC memos reveals the extent to which the techniques approved by Yoo resulted in "severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental," which clearly exceeded that endured by David Daliberti and his fellow Americans in Iraq.
First of all, there is waterboarding, an ancient torture technique that has long been recognized as torture by the United States. As Eric Holder noted during his confirmation hearing in January 2009, "We prosecuted our own soldiers for using it in Vietnam." With this in mind, it ought to be inconceivable that anyone could argue that waterboarding Abu Zubaydah 83 times and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times could be anything less than torture.
In addition, the prolonged isolation, prolonged sleep deprivation, nudity, hooding, shackling in painful positions, cramped confinement, physical abuse, dousing in cold water, beatings and threats endured by the CIA's high-value detainees (as revealed in the leaked International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) report based on interviews with the 14 men transferred to Guantánamo from secret CIA prisons in September 2006) completes a picture that surely "shocks the conscience" more than the torture described in Daliberti, especially as those held were subjected to these techniques for far longer periods.
Should any further doubts remain about the definition of torture - and how it was implemented in the "War on Terror" - these should have been dispelled in January 2009, when, shortly before President Bush left office, Susan Crawford, the retired military judge who was the Convening Authority for the Military Commissions at Guantánamo (responsible for deciding who should be charged) granted the most extraordinary interview to Bob Woodward of the Washington Post.
Crawford told Woodward that the reason she had not pressed charges against Mohammed al-Qahtani, a Saudi who was initially put forward for a trial by Military Commission, along with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi bin al-Shibh and three other men, was because he was tortured in Guantánamo.
"We tortured Qahtani," she said. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture."
"The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent," Crawford explained. "You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual. This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge," and to conclude that it was torture.
As I explained in an article at the time:
Al-Qahtani's treatment was severe, of course. As Time magazine revealed in an interrogation log that was made available in 2005, he was interrogated for 20 hours a day over a 50-day period in late 2002 and early 2003, when he was also subjected to extreme sexual humiliation, threatened by a dog, strip-searched and made to stand naked, and made to bark like a dog and growl at pictures of terrorists. On one occasion he was subjected to a "fake rendition," in which he was tranquilized, flown off the island, revived, flown back to Guantánamo, and told that he was in a country that allowed torture.
In addition, as I explained in my book The Guantánamo Files:
The sessions were so intense that the interrogators worried that the cumulative lack of sleep and constant interrogation posed a risk to his health. Medical staff checked his health frequently - sometimes as often as three times a day - and on one occasion, in early December, the punishing routine was suspended for a day when, as a result of refusing to drink, he became seriously dehydrated and his heart rate dropped to 35 beats a minute. While a doctor came to see him in the booth, however, loud music was played to prevent him from sleeping.
The techniques used on al-Qahtani were approved by defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, but the impetus came from the torture memos written and authorized by Yoo and Bybee. Moreover, although Crawford was not so principled when it came to considering the treatment to which the high-value detainees had been subjected in CIA custody - on the basis, presumably, that such information would be easier to conceal in a Military Commission than al-Qahtani's well-publicized ordeal - it is clear from the ICRC report on the high-value detainees that their treatment also "met the legal definition of torture." In addition, it seems probable that the treatment of the 80 other prisoners held in secret CIA prisons, the treatment of prisoners in Afghanistan, before their arrival in Guantánamo and the treatment of over 100 prisoners in Guantánamo, who were subjected to versions of the "enhanced interrogation techniques" used on al-Qahtani would also constitute torture.
For these reasons, David Margolis' whitewash of Yoo and Bybee cannot be the final word. In his memo to Attorney General Eric Holder, dismissing the report's conclusions, Margolis tried to claim that it was important to remember that Yoo and Bybee were working in extraordinary circumstances, striving to prevent another major terrorist attack. In an early version of the report, OPR head Mary Patrice Brown dismissed this argument, asserting, "Situations of great stress, danger and fear do not relieve department attorneys of their duty to provide thorough, objective and candid legal advice, even if that advice is not what the client wants to hear."
This is correct, but another authoritative source also explains why there are no excuses for twisting the law out of all shape in an attempt to justify torture. As the UN Convention Against Torture stipulates (Article 2.2), "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."
The UN Convention also stipulates (Article 4. 1) that signatories to the Convention "shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law" and requires each state, when torture has been exposed, to "submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution" (Article 7.1). As with Article 2.2, there are no excuses for not taking action, and that includes political expediency, or, as Barack Obama described it, "a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards."

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Comments
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Forget it. You're beating a
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 11:50 — mysterioso (not verified)Forget it. You're beating a dead horse.
There may not be a detailed
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 12:11 — mg (not verified)There may not be a detailed study of the effects of the "enhanced interrogation techniques", but for some in the military to scrap it's waterboarding training because it had the psychological effect of a nuclear bomb on a person's resolve is certainly telling. This was before, or at least about the same time as the infamous memos were drafted. Margolis' determination seems wrong.
Pointless exercise-this
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 12:18 — Anonymous (not verified)Pointless exercise-this administration has bought into all the evil of its' bush roots and will not let go.
Difference? N o difference. just repeated bait and switch to try and keep us on board.
"Forget it. You're beating a
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 12:31 — inL.A (not verified)"Forget it. You're beating a dead horse."
Until it's found out that an American was treated in the same manner.
Dead Horse or whatever, the
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 12:32 — Anonymous (not verified)Dead Horse or whatever, the fact that we even have to discuss torture shows that our government is clearly out of control.That so much torture went on and no one is yet held accountable could indeed lead to a conclusion that WE are the "bad guys" on the planet-
a violent regime with zero moral high ground to stand on... George Washinton is rolling in his grave...
Another attempt to test the
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 12:41 — Anonymous (not verified)Another attempt to test the waters. Another way to eventually be legal as "they" decide to torture Americans as the bankrupt government goes thru its death throes. Allowing an American to be classified an "enemy combatant" was only the beginning of the 4th Reich. Will Americans stand up for American Way?
Let Yoo and Bybee be
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 13:07 — Anonymous (not verified)Let Yoo and Bybee be subjected to water boarding, threatenings at gun point, and all the things they don't consider to be "torture" and then we will see if they alter their original definition of what torture is.
My fellow Americans, welcome
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 13:34 — BillyDoc (not verified)My fellow Americans, welcome to the true and undisputed Axis of Evil. The Great Satan. Our homeland.
I don't know about you, but I'm not at all proud of this. I spent years of my life in government and military service, thinking at the time that I was serving my country. There is no way I would do it again. Not even close. This IS the Great Satan and the Axis of Evil, this bastion of Christian Values. My only hope now is that it collapses quickly, for humanity's sake.
the government of the United
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 13:43 — Anonymous (not verified)the government of the United States. all three branches, no longer care about our history, our long held values, the rule of law, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.
All they care about is the law of the jungle, who survives and who dies.
It is like that T-shirt that came out a few years ago-"He who has the most toys when he dies, wins."
And if in the process of winning, torture must be used, according to their standards, they will find a rationalization for using it, just as they have done, no matter how their arguments stretch credulity, no matter how they violate our laws, treaties or history. If they think it will help them win, then it is fair game and a legitimate response.
Saints preserve us, as no one else will.
Obama is W-lite and like W
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 14:03 — Anonymous (not verified)Obama is W-lite and like W he deserves to be impeached!
Who would ever have thought
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 14:09 — boB0 (not verified)Who would ever have thought it. Once called the leader of the free world we are now Nazi Germany, or perhaps even worse. Maybe we are now Stalinist Soviet Union or The Peoples Repub under Mao. So this is how the average non Nazi, German citizen must have felt as Hitler took over power.
It is Obama who is
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 14:14 — No We Won't (not verified)It is Obama who is responsible for this cover-up or whitewashing of W/Cheney torture/warcrimes. And it is Obama who clearly now deserves to be IMPEACHED.
ACTUALLY IT'S HE WHO dies
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 14:28 — ultimus gimp (not verified)ACTUALLY IT'S HE WHO dies with the most toys- is dead
So right, Andy
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 14:29 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)So right, Andy Worthington!!!!! You put it so succinctly and thoroughly that there is absolutely no (further) excuse(s) for not completely recognizing that all of the very points, and most important points, you made are totally accurate.
This article and the pointed facts it proves entirely true, beyond any reasonable doubt(s) whatsoever, also pointedly prove that there is absolutely no (further) excuse(s) for not holding all those involved in ordering and/or justifying the obvious torture completely accountable to the fullest extent of the law; and that there are absolutely no doubts whatsoever that ALL OF THEM are war criminals and MUST BE prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned for the rest of their natural lives for their heinous orders, justifications and very serious criminal violations of law that they very clearly perpetrated.
Thank you for making this patently and absolutely clear beyond any reasonable or logical doubt(s), excuse(s), justification(s) or rationalization(s) whatsoever.
A tractor trailer seriously
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 14:53 — On Topic (not verified)A tractor trailer seriously injured Senate majority leader's wife, injuring his daughter also, by rear-ending her car. A rear-ending tractor trailer injured Judi Bari weeks before a car bomb nearly killed her, leaving her permanently crippled. FBI was covicted years later; gov't paid millions to her surviving daughters. President Johnson appointed former liberal Chief Justice Earl Warren to head a Commission that found Oswald to be President Kennedy's lone assassin, contrary to much evidence produced and later found to be factual. Many believe that Warren knew his family would have a fatal accident if he found otherwise. The Senate leader's intention to oppose further war funding became known when his wife's car was rear-ended.
"We hold these truths to be
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 14:55 — Anonymous (not verified)"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
...And "...Prudence, indeed,
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 15:58 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)...And "...Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, IT IS THEIR DUTY, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."!
U.S. Declaration of Independence, 1776; LAW, AND/OR PART OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, under the Constitution of the United States, THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, through the Supremacy Clause of that same Constitution! [Emphasis and/or clarification(s) added by me.]
IMPEACH TYRANT AND TREASONOUS TRAITOR BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, AKA BARRY SOTERO, CRIMINAL AGAINST THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS AMONG MANY OTHER LAWS; OBSTRUCTER OF JUSTICE BY PREVENTING WAR CRIMINALS FROM BEING PROSECUTED AND HELD ACCOUNTABLE; TORTURE ENABLER; "EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION" ENABLER; VIOLATOR AND DENIER OF TRUE DUE PROCESS OF LAW; ENABLER OF COMPLETELY UNCONSTITUTIONAL "LAW(S)" FALSELY AND FRAUDULENTLY LABELING, ACCUSING AND INDEFINITELY IMPRISONING, OFTEN WITHOUT TRIAL(S), COMPLETELY INNOCENT AMERICANS AND CITIZENS OF OTHER COUNTRIES FOR SUPPOSEDLY BEING "TERRORISTS", "ENEMY COMBATANTS", "ENEMY BELLIGERENTS", AND SUPPOSEDLY BEING "GUILTY" OF COMMITTING "PERCEIVED THREATENING CONDUCT" (UNDER THE SO-CALLED "U.S.A. 'P.A.T.R.I.O.T.' ACT"), BEING SO-CALLED "THREATS TO NATIONAL SECURITY", AND/OR OF SUPPOSEDLY BEING "GUILTY" OF BEING SO-CALLED "ENEMIES OF THE STATE"; ETC., ETC.!!!!!
Our government's embrace of
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 16:22 — Anonymous (not verified)Our government's embrace of torture during the dark Bush years and the failure under Obama to aggressively demand accountability and redress is the most profound signal, among the many, of our nation's decline and descent.
..'out damned spot..'
...And I inadvertently left
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 16:26 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)...And I inadvertently left out, ...ENABLER OF THE COMPLETELY FRAUDULENT, ENDLESS, TOTALLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND OTHERWISE COMPLETELY ILLEGAL "WAR (OF!) TERRORISM"...!
en dot wikipedia dot
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 16:49 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(United_States)
While the nation is defining
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 19:21 — Anonymous (not verified)While the nation is defining torture let us not forget to include the new "means and methods" of torture not being discussed such as brain and body implanted and embedded devices. The ability for remotely torture as defined by the U.S. right now can be done without any regulation at this time by advertisers. There is no excuse for AT&T being allowed to sell one on one time with embedded scientists, which came out during the hearings. What about the privacy and intellectual property and suffering of these scientists from AT&T's criminal behavior? Perhaps that is why there are so many dead or incarcerated ones. It was all about stealing technology for profit. This too, happened under the Cheney Presidency.
Advertisers like Ogilvy, a front for Mossad, have the rights to interact with people who have embedded devices without regulation. There was a hearing about it on Capital Hill last year. This interaction can include a total occupation of a person's time, sleeplessness until death, and even overriding corrections to the heart muscle to put a person into cardiac arrest.
Don't forget all the scientists and other innocent persons, including intelligence officers who were killed during the Bush Administration without the President's knowledge.
The real problem is what happened to the data, who has it, what are "they" doing with it and how can it be corrected.
We need Autolaw to safeguard ourselves.
There is no need whatsoever for any tortuous interrogations for any reason, when a persons mind can be read to obtain needed information.
i'm emailing for sick children
Let's face it. The effect
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 19:30 — Anonymous (not verified)Let's face it. The effect of sustained illegal mistreatment of prisoners, made very public, has gone a long way towards redefining the Taliban - at least in their own minds - as freedom fighters.
Do you honestly think a
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 19:50 — goddamnathiest (not verified)Do you honestly think a government lawyer would ever try and hold other government lawyers accountable for their actions?
Let these two stand trial at the Hague and then see what happens.
No government employee will ever be held accountable for their actions. But a junior enlisted soldier will and be sent to prison.
Where some still sit and rot for lesser acts.
You can't have a war on
Sat, 03/13/2010 - 20:10 — Anonymous (not verified)You can't have a war on terror - semantically this is ludicrous. War IS terror & the USA are promoting, executing, aiding and abetting more wars than any other nation on the planet. So who are the terrorists?
There is absolutely no doubt
Sun, 03/14/2010 - 01:44 — Anonymous (not verified)There is absolutely no doubt that U.S. officials
authorized and caused to be effectuated
torture on multiple occasions.
No doubt whatsoever.
Obama is complicit with Bush and Cheney in
administering torture.
We have entered a complete and total orwellian regime.
Please settle down --
Sun, 03/14/2010 - 02:06 — Anonymous (not verified)Please settle down -- Hysteria wins no battles. Obama accurately judged that 34 million Americans need med.care before we all can afford to settle this important legal matter. Remember how Clinton's political foes diverted attention for two years onto his personal goof-up? Steady Obama is right: The (obvious to me) sins and crimes of Att'y Yoo and accomplice can wait until we get 34 mill. Americans in under our tent and a lot more people re- employed. THEN is the ripe time to confront Yoo and the entire Cheney team of fierce defenders. But for the first couple Obama years, we need to stay cool like Br'er Fox in Uncle Remus' tales: "But Br'er Fox, he don't say nuthin'; he jus' lay low."
There is nothing hysterical
Sun, 03/14/2010 - 04:21 — Anonymous (not verified)There is nothing hysterical about the truth.
A six year war with 50 million dead ended in the
Nuremberg trials. Do you call those trials
"hysteria" or a matter of secondary importance?
They established the sound legal doctrines
under which Yoo is clearly guilty.
You (above poster)
are an apologist for evil.
Why do people always try to
Sun, 03/14/2010 - 08:07 — Anonymous (not verified)Why do people always try to imply that we can only do one thing at a time. We can improve health care, create jobs, and prosecute torturers all at the same time. There is nothing preventing us from multi-tasking except for an unwillingness to do so.
It is heartening to see that
Sun, 03/14/2010 - 08:54 — David (not verified)It is heartening to see that the pro-war, pro-torture shills who used to show up often in Truthout comments have gone elsewhere. And in these comments there's only one shill who tries to claim that if Obama followed international and domestic law by having the torturers prosecuted, that somehow this would endanger health care reform, which by the way is not progressive health care reform but is actually a way to force millions of us to buy private health care or else face IRS penalties. The other thing to realize is that unless we Americans do more than post comments on website message boards, unless we have a street revolution that surpasses what the hippies and black panthers did in the 60's to stop the Vietnam war and remove Nixon, we will never change the evil and depravity of the US government-corporate-fascist state at all levels.
1. 13:07 is on the
Sun, 03/14/2010 - 09:16 — Anonarcmous (not verified)1. 13:07 is on the nailhead--the 'Republcan-McCain-OLD-MAN-ELITIST-LUXURY-1-thing-@/time idea'-REPEATED &MAINSTREAMED so we are rendered impotent! Now who does that in real life??
Not true, esp in medicine, you NEVER do that--you do everything you can @ once. You never waste time. REMEMBER THE OLD "TIME IS MONEY"...& not for no reason, right??
2. Torture is the 1st step in the direction of death by homicide--we prosecute people for doing this to pets & animals! Some black football player fights dogs & he goes to prison!!!
3. When employed by the US government, Yoo -et-al have a PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITY b/c their professional credentials got them the position. If these are not well used, they are removed. Any other professional mistreats, s/he he loses licensure, or any certifications, even though not accountable for criminal or lawbreaking b/c he did not actually hold the weapons.
If Ms. or Mr. "Settle Down"
Sun, 03/14/2010 - 13:02 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)If Ms. or Mr. "Settle Down" above and others believe that after "Ob(o)m(b)a" tackles some other things, he's supposedly going to then tackle prosecution of the war criminals, of which he is one, they're crazier than loons. It ain't never gonna happen, because he and Holder didn't start the process a year ago. But, I hope I'm wrong and that I eat my hat. Yet, sadly, I'm very likely not wrong in this instance, unfortunately.
The United States prosecuted
Mon, 03/15/2010 - 11:23 — Anonymous (not verified)The United States prosecuted Japanese officers after WWII for the war crime of waterboarding. If the U.S. saw waterboarding as a war crime then, why doesn't it now?
I have read many comments
Mon, 03/15/2010 - 12:38 — Lawrence Seib (not verified)I have read many comments here about how the government does not work and that it should be overthrown. What then would we do? No more elections, Democracy? The problem is not with the government but with the rich elites who control the government through lobbyists and talk radio.
The FCC used to have "clear public interest requirements" for broadcasting and they also had ownership rules. Fixing this is easier that revolution and might actually do some good.
Larry
Lawrence Seib, are you an
Mon, 03/15/2010 - 14:04 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)Lawrence Seib, are you an "American"? Because your comment completely, and very conveniently, not to mention traitorously if you are an "American", ignores Constitutional DUTY(IES) which are part of the Constitution through the Supremacy Clause, spelled out in the Declaration of Independence which was and/or were quoted word for word above, AND WHICH APPLY TO EVERY SINGLE U.S. CITIZEN, AND EVERY SINGLE U.S. CITIZEN IS REQUIRED TO OBEY [unless, of course, they choose not to, and choose to be traitors instead, like the U.S. President(s), most members of the U.S. Congress, many members of the U.S. Supreme Court, and most U.S. citizens].
It amazes me, though doesn't surprise me (because of how ignorant most Americans have been intentionally made to be about same, and thus feel little or no true allegiance or loyalty to it), that far too many Americans just cavalierly sidestep the REQUIREMENTS of the U.S. Constitution, and do it so prevalently.
What about DUTY AND LOYALTY do you "Americans" not understand; and not understand about the fact that, if you fail to completely fulfill your Constitutional duties and loyalties without fail, you are traitors?!
[And please don't anyone come back at me with those lame, traitorous arguments about how the Constitution is supposedly a "myth", etc., and/or about how it is allegedly meant to be an "adaptable", 'flexible", etc., document and so on. It is required by Constitutional law that the Constitution can ONLY be altered by Constitutional amendment...
...Therefore, if someone, or
Mon, 03/15/2010 - 14:13 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)...Therefore, if someone, or some people, hypothetically-speaking, want to add to Constitutional law, and/or add law that is supposedly "Constitutional", to the Constitution that torture is allegedly lawful and "Constitutional", as an example, a Constitutional convention has to be held under Constitutional law to add another Amendment to the Constitution stating such.
If some case law precedent(s) is and/or are made, and/or some Congressional bill(s) is and/or are passed into "law", making torture supposedly "legal", it would be UNconstitutional because it would contradict other parts and/or Amendments of the Constitution, Articles of the Bill of Rights, other domestic laws that are joined to the Constitution through the Supremacy Clause, as well as international treaties and laws that are also joined to the Constitution through the Supremacy Clause, and are therefore ALL CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, which make torture completely illegal and/or unlawful; unless, of course, the lawmakers overturned those previous Amendments of the Constitution, Articles of the Bill of Rights, and other laws through that new Amendment and other new Congressional bills passed into "law".
Are you ONLY Truly, Fully, Completely AND CORRECTLY understanding me, People? And are you Truly, Fully and Completely loyal to and in obedience of the Constitution? Because, if you aren't, you have absolutely no right to call yourselves "Americans", "totally faithful U.S. citizens", "patriotic", "fully loyal to the country", "completely law-abiding citizens", etc.]
To S. Wolf Britain. I
Mon, 03/15/2010 - 14:53 — Lawrence Seib (not verified)To S. Wolf Britain.
I understand Bush, Cheney, Yoo and there ilk broke the law and that Obama not only has not prosecuted them but has continued many of their practices. I have written many letters and e-mails calling for a special prosecutor. Since these letters seem to fall on deaf ears I like many other liberals are frustrated. I recommend contacting my representatives to put the community service and monopoly laws back into the FCC to reduce the influence of talk radio to get our government back. What is your strategy to get Bush, Cheney and Yoo prosecuted for torture?
Lawrence, other than doing
Mon, 03/15/2010 - 16:54 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)Lawrence, other than doing what you've done (and/or are still doing?), and getting more and more people to march in the streets and sit down and refuse to move for DAYS (if there's a HUGE number of protesters that the cops could only make a token gesture of attacking, assaulting and arresting), I don't think there's much else really that we can do non-violently and peacefully do to secure true Hope and Change.
If I was for violent action(s) against the completely corrupt government, which I'm most-definitely NOT, I would say that the violence-oriented whistleblowers, and present and former U.S. military, CIA, FBI, etc., personnel should have carried out a successful coup against the government several years ago, or should do so now.
To answer your question, although I've made it very clear that I believe that we must NOT give up, and that we MUST continue to stand up against all of this fast-rising evil, no matter what, sadly and/or unfortunately I don't think the BushCON-NeoCON-NeoLibCONS will ever be prosecuted for torture; or even that any of this madness will ever truly be stopped. Yet, I sincerely hope I'm wrong...
...BUT, AGAIN, I MAKE CLEAR
Mon, 03/15/2010 - 17:09 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)...BUT, AGAIN, I MAKE CLEAR THAT WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY AND DUTY TO KEEP TRYING TO DO SO, AND TO NEVER GIVE UP, NO MATTER WHAT! EVEN IF IT ENDS UP BEING FRUITLESS IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO GIVE UP AND NO LONGER TRY! OTHERWISE, ALL THOSE WHO DO GIVE UP AND NO LONGER EVEN TRY TO STAND UP AND OVERTURN ALL OF THIS TYRANNICAL AND TREASONOUS INSANITY, ARE COWARDS, AS WELL AS TRAITORS TO GOD (AS IN GOD-GIVEN FREEDOMS), HUMAN RIGHTS, CIVIL LIBERTIES, THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS, THE U.S. ITSELF, AND TO THE ENTIRE WORLD; AND ARE COMPLICIT IN ALL OF THE REPRESSION THAT IS ABOUT TO UNFOLD IF WE THE PEOPLE DON'T PUT A STOP TO IT!
SO, IF WE DON'T WANT TO BE COMPLICIT, AND/OR BE COWARDS AND TRAITORS, WE HAVE LITTLE OR NO CHOICE BUT TO STAND UP AGAINST ALL OF THIS MADNESS WITH EVERYTHING WE'VE GOT! THAT IS, IF WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE ON OUR CONSCIENCE(S) HAVING BEEN COMPLICIT IN IT BY OUR COMPLACENCY AND INACTION! DO YOU, AND/OR ANYONE READING THIS, WANT TO HAVE THAT ON YOUR CONSCIENCE? IF NOT, DO ALL THAT YOU CAN DO (AND, BELIEVE ME, THAT IS A LOT, AS THERE ARE MANY THINGS LISTED ALL OVER THE INTERNET THAT WE CAN DO)! THERE IS AND/OR ARE ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE(S) WHATSOEVER FOR NOT DOING SO (THAT ARE IN ANY SHAPE, FORM OR FASHION ACCEPTABLE ANYWAY)!
THEREFORE, ROLL UP YOUR SLEEVES AND GET BUSY... EVERYONE! IT IS A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH, AND OF PROTECTING THE SAFETY OF YOURSELF(VES), YOUR FAMILY(IES) AND YOUR FRIENDS! OTHERWISE, ALL OF US, INCLUDING ALL THOSE WHO KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT AND DO NOTHING, ARE IN GRAVE DANGER! AS A RESULT, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE IN DOING THE RIGHT THING(S) AND STANDING UP AGAINST ALL OF THE INSANITY; BECAUSE, IF YOU DON'T DO SO, DUE TO THAT MADNESS, YOU, YOUR FAMILY(IES) AND FRIENDS ARE GOING TO LOSE YOUR LIVES ANYWAY!
IT IS MUCH BETTER TO DIE BEING A TRUE PATRIOT OF THE U.S. AND/OR THE WORLD, AND NOT BEING A COWARD, THAN TO DIE AS A COWARD AND TRAITOR!
AND GOD WILL BE WITH YOU IF YOU ONLY DO THE RIGHT THING(S)!
Oh, Lawrence . . . you went
Tue, 03/16/2010 - 13:59 — Frances in California (not verified)Oh, Lawrence . . . you went and set off S. Wolf Britain so now he's sitting at his computer instead of going to take his meds . . . that'll teach you. Yes, you're doing all you can; but don't stop. If we all do all we can . . . well . . . just remember what King said; I think he was paraphrasing someone ancient and Greek. Or maybe he made it up! He said many profound things but the one the stays for me is: "The arc of the Universe is long but it bends . . . toward Justice". The elipses are in there because he used an eloquent adverb that I can't now recall, "ineluctably" or some such.
Ignoramus, libeler,
Tue, 03/16/2010 - 19:02 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)Ignoramus, libeler, slanderer, "illegally-practicing-medicine-without-a-license" and "unlawfully-making-psychological-and/or-psychiatric-diagnoses" Frances is at it again.
Lawrence responded to me politely and asked me a question, and I was simply responding to him politely and answering his question. The capitalization was and is for emphasis so more of the people reading here who are unaware of the things of which I was speaking, or not as aware of them as they should be, would hopefully and more likely realize how important those issues are. I was NOT yelling at him.
So, please, "go take a flying leap", Frances! I would say (it sounds like) YOU are the one who needs psych medication; but, if I did so, I would be violating the law as you did.
Of course, you hateful "shills-for-political-correctness-and-for-'thought-policing'" in violation of countless rights are probably already going to TruthOut screaming, "Please do something about Wolf Britain(!)", etc.; and, instead of deleting the illegal comments of such people, including yourself, TruthOut will probably end up banning me or otherwise interfering with my free speech because of listening to the evil force of numbers of you "lamebrains". [I tell it like it is, Sister, et al.; so, if you don't like it, illegally influence TruthOut to unlawfully take action(s) against me, as you're probably doing already, or would have done eventually anyway. I have a complete right (as another Constitutionally-protected free speech right), here and/or anyplace else, to defend myself against the ad hominem attacks of assailants like yourself. And, because "you" make ad hominem attacks, etc., it proves me completely accurate in saying that "you" ARE (a) lamebrain(s) and ignoramus(es), etc.]
Therefore, if you think I'm "a piece of work", you really ought to go look at yourself in the mirror... AND FINALLY LEARN TO "LIVE AND LET LIVE".
...And what if I were
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 18:02 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)...And what if I were "yelling in print", if that's even truly possible? WE ALL should be yelling from the rooftops that we're "...mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!" (From the movie, 'Network'.) It is absolutely no exaggeration whatsoever that our country is going completely insane on an express train to hell on earth; so, OF COURSE, we should be VERY angry and voicing, expressing and emphasizing it in every way we can.
Lukewarm "protests" don't and won't cut it anymore; and, if We the People don't literally put a stop to all of this madness in every peaceful, non-violent way that WE CAN, this country and its people are literally doomed. That is absolutely NO "alarmism", is NOT "making too big a deal out of nothing", is not "overemphasizing", etc., and we've all got to completely wake up and take a stand for the sake of all of us or the complete eradication of all liberty and freedom, and its resultant repression, are very near at hand...
...So get angry. Yell. Use
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 18:05 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)...So get angry. Yell. Use capitalization to emphasize the very high importance of truth as much as you and/or everyone want; and stop giving people crap because they do so. Part of free speech is also being able to freely write and/or express any way people want. They don't have to follow arbitrary "rules" that violate free speech. Many if not most of those people who criticize "violating" arbitrary grammatical, journalistic and/or internet "rules", etc., believe and/or claim we are free, but at the same time they would contravene and/or abrogate the freedom(s) of others...
...Many if not most of
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 18:29 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)...Many if not most of so-called "progressives" also seek to silence those they don't want to hear truth from, all the while claiming they completely believe in free speech. And they can supposedly make ad hominem attacks as much as they want to without ramifications, but others who are outspoken and speak forcefully about truth(s) that most people don't want to hear must supposedly be "shut down", "banned", "silenced", etc., thus aiding and abetting those in the power structure who are seeking to destroy all of our freedoms and liberties, and to completely control all of us. Therefore, totally face ALL such fascism and stop being complicit in ANY of its treachery(ies)...
The founder of the ACLU (of
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 18:58 — S. Wolf Britain (not verified)The founder of the ACLU (of which I have been a member in good standing for several years), Roger Baldwin, said, "No fight for civil liberties ever stays won"; thus, all of us must always stay vigilant, because evil powers are forever seeking to destroy our freedoms and to enslave us; and we must not fall for their "divide and conquer" strategies and schemes to get us to aid in our own demise. Such haters of liberty and freedom never rest in seeking to eradicate our liberties and freedoms; and, as a result, we must never rest in seeking to preserve them. Nor can we allow ourselves to continue to fall for the destroyers' sophistry to keep us at odds with one another, to keep us from saving ourselves from their destruction of our independence and freedom, and to unwittingly help them to win. Let these things not be!